[스크랩] [충격인터뷰] 릭 워렌(Rick Warren) 목사의 동성연애 결혼에 대한 의견!

[CNN-Larry King Live 래리킹 라이브쇼: Rick Warren 릭 워렌 목사 인터뷰 방송내용] 
 
2009년 04월 06일 월요일 - 오바마 대통령 취임식에 참석한 이후 첫번째로한 TV 인터뷰 내용
 
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2009/04/07/lkl.rick.warren.cnn 
 
 
래리킹: 어떤일에 대해 릭 워렌 목사님의 의견에 대해서 여러분들이 어떠한 생각을 하시든간에 
그는 특별한 인물이고 저희 프로그램에 언제나 좋은 손님으로 참석해 오셨습니다.
새들백 교회의 담임 목사님 이시고, 뉴욕 타임지의 베스트 셀러로 선정된 책-'목적이 이끄는 삶'의 저자이며,
또한 그는 버락 오바마 대통령의 취임식에서 기도를 이끄셨고, 캘리포니아 얼바인에서 오신분 입니다.
 
목사님! 오바마 대통령이 특별히 목사님에게 취임식의 기도를 이끌게 지목한것에 대해 여러가지로 논란이 많았었는데요,
이것에 대해서 어떻게 생각하십니까? 
 
 
릭 워렌: 있잖아요, 래리! 그런 종류의 스토리 있지요, 왜...처음부터 어떠한 얘기를 전혀 하지 않았는데도, 
소문으로는 그냥 그렇게 돌아나와 그것이 사실처럼 되어 버린것이요.
 
저는 실질적으로 게이(동성연애자)들의 관계나, 또한 게이들이 결혼하는것에 대해서 반대를 하는 사람이 아닙니다.
그리고, 앞으로도 Pro. 8(프로포지션 8-캘리포니아 주에서 동성연애자들의 결혼을 반대하는 법) 같은것에 대해서도 
절대로 반대를 하지 않을것 입니다! 
 
Pro.8 의 법이 실행되었던 지난 2년 동안, 저는 한번도 그와 관련하여 미팅에 참석하거나,
또한 어떠한 의견을 발표한 적도, 동성연애 결혼에 대해 반대를 하는 성명에 싸인한 적도 없었습니다.
 
그 Pro.8 를 계속유지 하는냐 않하느냐의 찬반 투표가 실행되기 바로 일주일전, 
저희 교회의 교인중의 한 사람이 저에게 묻기를,
"릭 워렌 목사님, 목사님은 그 법(사건)에 대해서 어떻게 생각하십니까?" 라고 했습니다.
 
그래서 노트로 적어서 그에게 대답하기를, 
"저는 결혼의 정의는 -남.녀.- 사이에서만 이루어 지는것으로 한정을 시켜 말씀드리고 싶습니다." 라고 했습니다.
 
그러나 어느날 갑자기, 그전에 제가 그렇게 말했던것이 정말 그런의미로 말한것은 아니었다고 깨닿게 되었습니다.
그당시 그렇게 저의 의견을 말할때, 제가 말실수를 한것 같아서 지금에와서는 빼고 싶은 말들이 몇가지 있습니다.
 
그일뒤에, 저는 저의 모든 게이(동성연애자) 친구들과 그들의 리더들에게도 
제가 그렇게 언급한 사항에 대하여 글로써서 따로이 사과를 했습니다.
보통 어떠한 사람이든지 공적인 자리에서 말실수를 하다면, 그것에 대해서 적어도 10% 정도의 관용은 배푸는 법이잖아요.
 
예전에 제가 언급한 "게이들의 결혼은 마치 어린이를 상대로 하는 성도착증자나 근친상간과 같은것(수준)이다" 라고 
말한것에 대해서 지금은 절대적으로 그렇게 믿고있지 않다고 이미 발표를 했습니다.
 
저에게 비난을 던졌던 모든사람들은 저를 잘 몰랐던 분들입니다.  
에이즈 문제와 관련된 목회일 혹은 그밖의 일때문에 저와 같이 일해온,
그리고 저와 잘 알고 지내는 어떠한 게이 리더로 부터는 단 한가지의 비평도 듣지 못했습니다.  
 
 
래리킹: 그래서 지금 목사님께서는 아이오와 주의 법원에서 결정한 게이들의 결혼 허가에 대해서 비판하거나, 
혹은 어떠한 의견도 표방 하시지 않으시겠다는 건가요?
 
 
릭 워렌: 저는 완전히 그 문제에 대해서는 관심이(안중에 없음) 없습니다.................................
.....(여기서 그가 말끝을 흐리며 빨리 다른 화제로 돌림)...그리고 그것은 제가 이렇다 저렇다 할, 의견을 낼 사항이 아닙니다.
 
 
 "누가 아무렇게 하여도 너희가 미혹하지 말라 
  먼저 배도하는 일이 있고 저 불법의 사람 곧 멸망의 아들이 나타나기 전에는 이르지 아니하리니...
 
  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, 
  except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 
  아무도 어떤 모양으로든지 너희를 미혹하지 못하게 하라. 
  이는 먼저 배교하는 일이 이르지 않고서는 그날이 오지 아니함이라. 그리고 나서 죄의 사람 곧 멸망의 아들이 나타나리라."
 
                                                                                                    -데살로니가 후서 2장 3절-  
★<위의 번역내용의 영문 transcript>★-------------------------------------------------------------------------
KING: No matter what you may think of Rick Warren's opinion on things, he's an extraordinary guy and always a great guest and it's always good to have him.

He's pastor of the Saddleback Church. He's the number one "New York Times" best-selling author of "The Purpose-Driven Life." He delivered the invocation at Barack Obama's inauguration. He comes to us from Irvine, California.

How did you handle all the controversy that resulted about the president selecting you?

RICK WARREN: Yes, you know, Larry, there was a story within a story that never got told. In the first place, I am not an anti-gay or anti-gay marriage activist. I never have been, never will be.

During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never -- never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop 8 was going.

The week before the -- the vote, somebody in my church said, Pastor Rick, what -- what do you think about this?

And I sent a note to my own members that said, I actually believe that marriage is -- really should be defined, that that definition should be -- say between a man and a woman.

And then all of a sudden out of it, they made me, you know, something that I really wasn't. And I actually -- there were a number of things that were put out. I wrote to all my gay friends -- the leaders that I knew -- and actually apologized to them. That never got out.

There were some things said that -- you know, everybody should have 10 percent grace when they say public statements. And I was asked a question that made it sound like I equated gay marriage with pedophilia or incest, which I absolutely do not believe. And I actually announced that.

All of the criticism came from people that didn't know me.

KING: Well...

WARREN: Not a single criticism came from any gay leader who knows me and knows that for years, we've been working together on AIDS issues and all these other things.

KING: All right. Do you, therefore, criticize or not comment on the Iowa court decision to permit gay marriage?

WARREN: Yes. I'm -- I'm totally oblivious to -- to what -- that's not even my agenda.
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★방송은 아래와 같이 계속 이어졌습니다. <계속되는 영문 transcript 의 내용>
  일단 번역 내용없이, 아래에 올려 둡니다.★
 
 
WARREN: My agenda is two things.

One, today is the 15th anniversary of the genocide in Rwanda. It's a national day of mourning, which I -- as you know, I've been heavily involved in -- in Rwanda and helping rebuild that nation and I'm very concerned about that.

And the second thing is, I'm interested in what the recession is doing to the spiritual climate of our nation. And as we start Easter week and Passover week, which is a really big week for those of us who are Jews or Christians, Passover and Easter, it's our biggest week of the year. And it actually was the -- the week that I started Saddleback Church 30 years ago this Easter Sunday.
 
KING: All right. I -- we'll get to that and we'll get to, certainly, the recession and faith in a minute.

But have -- by the way, have you talked to Obama since the inaugural?

WARREN: No, I haven't. I've talked to the White House staff several times. I haven't talked to him. All -- all I'm doing is trying to keep my head down on the things that I've got to do. And I'm -- I know I'm -- he's trying to keep his head down on all the things he's got to do. And we certainly need to pray for the president. I wouldn't want to be president during what's happening right now.

KING: What's your thoughts about how he's doing?

WARREN: I think he's doing as best as he can. I think he is a -- he's a good leader. Every leader makes mistakes.

So what? But he's doing the best he can. And I think that -- that the deck of cards he was given, no president has been given this in a long, long time, in terms of the crises that he's having to deal with. It is so complex. And it's not going to be solved overnight. And America has a very short attention span.

KING: Were you surprised he asked you to deliver the invocation?

WARREN: I was. I could have given you a list of 30 other guys I would have thought he would have asked.

KING: How did it happen?

Did he call you?

Did somebody call -- how did -- how did it -- how did the process take place?

WARREN: I had just finished a week in New York City, when we were launching our "Purpose-Driven Connection" magazine. And I was actually sitting on the plane on a runway. And my associate said, there's a cell phone call and it's -- it's the president-elect.

And sitting on the runway, he said, "Rick, I want you to do the inaugural -- the inaugural prayer."

And I, of course, said, well, anything I could do. I was surprised.

There were two back to back days there that were pretty amazing for me. The day before, I was invited to speak at the 40th anniversary of Martin Luther King's death at Ebenezer Baptist Church. And to me, he's been a hero all of my life. I have a picture and a signed letter of Martin Luther King hanging in my -- in my office with a picture of Gandhi next to it. And to be invited to speak at -- at Martin Luther King's memorial day service on the 40th anniversary and the 80th birthday of his -- of his life was a big deal.

And then to do the inauguration the next day was amazing.

KING: It's been quite a year, quite a time, quite an era for Rick Warren.

We'll be back with him in a moment. The decline and fall of Christian America -- does a new poll indicate that that is happening?

We'll get -- we'll get the thoughts of Rick Warren on that, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Rick Warren. 

He's in Irvine and we're in New York. 

One other thing in the gay issue, while you said you were not an activist at all...

WARREN: Yes. 

KING: Did you not encourage your flock to vote yes on Proposition 8?

WARREN: Oh, yes. You know, I don't think that the definition of marriage should be changed.

KING: So you did ask your people who worship with you to vote that way?

WARREN: Yes. I just never campaigned...

KING: ...because that's an active issue. 

WARREN: I never campaigned for it. I never -- I'm not an anti-gay activist -- never have been. Never participated in a single event. I just simply made a note in a newsletter. And, of course, everything I write it's -- it's (INAUDIBLE). 

KING: It's not high on your road of issues? 

WARREN: No, no, it's very low. In fact, I am working with a number of gay organizations on issues that we care about, in saving lives. 

KING: OK. Do you think Christianity is slipping in America? That's the front cover of "Newsweek," out today. Quite a loss occurring in the Christian community. There you see the headline. 

WARREN: Well, I would say it's the best of times and the worst of times. First place, I don't think that all of the questions that are asked in surveys are always as objective as they could be. For instance, if you ask people, are you a Protestant -- and the number of Protestants has gone down dramatically in the last 30 years. I don't even call myself a Protestant. 

So terminologies are changing. I don't think faith is changing that much. I think that during a recession three things happen, Larry. Three things go up when money goes down. Church attendance goes up, bar attendance goes up, and movie attendance goes up, because people are looking for three things when they're disappointed in materialism. They're looking for meaning, and that's why they start going to church. They're looking for connections in relationships, and that's why they go to bars. They're looking for relief, and that's why they go to movies. 

We at Saddleback have been trying to -- actually have created three different programs that we're launching nationally for connection, for relieve and for meaning. At the same time, bad times are good times for churches in many ways, because people are much more open to spiritual truth than any other time. We're seeing spiritual awakening at our church. 

KING: Aren't they at the same time saying, where is god? WARREN: Oh, I think people ask that question constantly. That's not a question of doubt. That's a question of seekers. It's the person who says, I'm not worried with anybody -- everybody has doubts. I have doubts. People have doubts all the time. I'll read things in the Bible and go, why did that happen? I wouldn't have done if it I had been god. You better be glad I'm not god. But there are a lot of things -- I learned a long time ago that I don't have to understand everything for me to benefit from it. 

I don't understand how a car works but I drive it. I don't understand how digestion works but I eat. 

KING: What do you say to people who have lost everything, they're out of work, they lose their home, foreclosures? God ain't going to come in tomorrow and help them. 

WARREN: First place, I would say, god sees, god knows, god cares, god can help, god understands. I would say the greatest things in life aren't things. One of the things we need to learn is that when tough times come along, there are lessons we can learn that -- god whispers to us in our pleasure, but he shouts to us in our pain. Pain is god's megaphone. 

Last Saturday, we had the largest single membership class in the 30-year history of Saddleback Church. There's so much spiritual hunger. I had, Larry, 2,400 people come to the class I've taught every month now for over 30 years. We usually have 100 to 200 new members. We had 2,400 people join our church in a single day. And I baptized 800 new believers. We baptize by putting people under water. 

I was in the baptism pool for over five hours. That's never happened. While there are people who are hurting, people are also searching. 

KING: The Obamas are searching, too, for a church, apparently in Washington. They don't have one. Do you think it's important for the public to see their leader go to church? 

WARREN: I think it's important for the public to see our leaders having faith. I think it expresses a sense of humility that says, I recognize that I'm not the end all, be all. It's a good sense of humility and a declaration of dependence upon god. And there are -- I could recommend a dozen really good churches in Washington D.C. area. I have a lot of pastor friends of all different styles. You tell me the style you want and I'll tell you a good church in Washington, D.C. 

KING: I'm sure they'll call you. Back with more of Rick Warren. Your emails, phone calls and blogs for Rick still ahead. Stay with us. 

KING: We're with Rick Warren. An e-mail question from Mim in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. "Are you a consultant to President Obama as Billy Graham was to previous presidents? Is that a role you would want?" 

WARREN: No. In fact, I told the president that. I'm a friend and I'm a prayer partner, but I'm not a consultant. I'm not a pundit. And it's not my role to do that. My role is to help people in their personal lives. I have helped a lot of leaders, both locally and globally, with issues about family and issues about personal stress. That's a pastoral role. I'm a pastor, as you know, Larry. I'm not a politician and I'm not a pundit. 

I care about each person individually, whether I happen to agree with them or not. We all have the same basic needs. We all want to be loved. We all want to have a place of service. We all want our lives to count. We all want to know our purpose in life. These are things that everybody deals with.

KING: Do you still give 90 percent away from what you take in? 

WARREN: Yes, sure do. 

KING: We have a phone call for Rick Warren from Orlando, Florida. Hello. 

CALLER: Hello, Pastor Warren, I have heard evangelicals believe that President Obama is the anti-Christ. 
Are you aware of this and if so, how do you feel about it? 

WARREN: Well, of course, I don't agree with that. Thank you for the question. I don't agree with that. You can't label -- saying Evangelicals believe is like saying Americans believe. I can show you all levels of spectrum in terms of political views and indoctrinal views. They just have in common the connection to Jesus Christ. So I don't believe that and I don't even think most Evangelicals believe that. In fact, I'm certain they don't. 

KING: Obama has traveled to Turkey, first president to visit a Muslim country. He had this to say about the United States and Islam in a speech to Turkish parliament. Watch. I'd like you to comment. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The United States is not and will never be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical, not just in rolling back the violent ideologies that people of all faiths reject, but also to strengthen opportunity for all people. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What do you think of that? 

WARREN: You know, I think that's the exact right tone, Larry. There are 600,000 Buddhists in the world. There are 800,000 Hindus in the world. There are a billion Muslims in the world. There are 2.3 billion Christians in the world. You have to get along together. That's why I speak with Jewish groups. I speak to Muslim groups. 

We're all human beings. We have to work on issues we don't always agree on. I'm not really into what I call inter-faith dialogue. I think that's a lot of wasted time. I'm interested in what I call inter-faith projects. In other words, I'm not going to convince a lot of people who have other beliefs to change their beliefs and vice versa. But we can work together on issues like poverty, disease, illiteracy and things that -- problems common to all humanity. 

This week, for instance, tomorrow night, I'm going to a Seder dinner with my dear friend Elie Spitz (ph), who is a local rabbi. We'll celebrate Passover together. And then later in the work, I'll do Easter, which is -- they're both all about redemption. My next door neighbor is Muslim. I traveled with him to the Middle East. We're dear, dear friends. And there's no reason -- what people don't seem to understand is that you don't have to agree with everybody in order to love them. 

KING: Do you -- how many children have you brought to live with you from other countries? 

WARREN: Well, in our home, we haven't had any. But we, of course, strongly -- have a strong adoption ministry in our church. We're right now working on a plan to take care of every -- a plan to actually empty the foster care needs of Orange County, which there's about 2,400 kids in need of foster care in our county. I have over 4,000 small groups. If each small group took responsibility for foster care of a child, they would do that. 

In my own small group, we've had people who have adopted, families, children, from Africa and, of course, we are very involved in that. My wife's involved in that in our foundation called Acts of Mercy. 

KING: Amazing. We'll be back with more of Rick Warren, the pastor of the Saddleback Church, author of the number one "New York Times" best selling book, "The Purpose Driven Life." 

If you have questions or comments for Rick, head to our blog, CNN.com/LarryKing. We'll read some of them after this 60 second break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: A lot of comments on the below about tonight's show. Our correspondent David Theall is here with some of what you're saying about Pastor Warren. 

DAVID THEALL, CNN BLOG CORRESPONDENT: Larry, we're hearing from people who are fans of the pastor's work and we're also hearing from people who are angry still at some of the positions that he has taken over the last couple years. Says this person, "Rick Warren saved my life, my marriage and my family with the 'purpose Driven Life.'" He thanks the pastor. 

We heard from somebody who said this, "my son is gay, a veteran, and I resent people like Rick Warren using the Bible to tell my son who he can marry." That's just a little bit of some of what's happening on the blog tonight, Larry. 

KING: Thank you so much, David. Rick, I guess that last comment doesn't shock you, does it? 

WARREN: Well, it's not my opinion. As a pastor, I just have to do what the Bible tells me to do. And the way I interpret it, I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. And that's good for society. That doesn't mean that people don't love each other. It just means that marriage is for a man and a woman. 

You know, Larry, regardless of all these things we've just been listening to, whether it's terrorism or whether it's the economy, we really have to come together. And we have to figure out a way to work together, even though we have differences on the issues that really matter most. One of the things we're doing is our goal is to start what we're calling 10,000 connection groups across America, to just get people to sit down together and talk. 

In each of the new issues of the magazine we're doing, we're providing material that causes discussions, causing people to discuss issues like, well, how do we get along together? And what is the purpose of connecting? What is real community all about? Where did we come from? Where are we going? What does it mean to be a part of a community? 

I'm going to talk about some of these things on April 19th, Sunday evening. For 30 years, Larry, I have done an annual State of the Church Message for Saddleback Church. And this year, for the first time, we're actually going to webcast it nationally on our PurposeDriven.com site. Anybody who wants to hear about that. I'm going to talk about what are we supposed to be doing in coming together during the recession on that April 19th -- 

KING: Sunday night, April 19th, and that's at what time? 

WARREN: It will be Sunday evening, depending on what part of the country you live in. But you can go to PurposeDriven.com and get all of the details about that. KING: All right. PurposeDriven.com. Phone lines are lighting up. We'll get to some more calls if we squeeze them in for Rick Warren right after this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Rick Warren, I've got an e-mail question for you from Curtis in Washington. "How have tough economic times affected your church ministries in terms of tithes and offerings and outreach programs?" 

WARREN: Well, actually, we have a pretty generous church, and our giving has actually gone up, because we're encouraging people to give more to help those who are not helped. Six weeks ago, we passed out 12,000 grocery bags on a Sunday morning. I said, everybody fill them up and bring them back next week, and we're going to give them away to people who are less fortunate than us. And the next week about 10,000 of those bags came back. 

We're going to do the same thing this weekend. Easter -- of course, we start on Thursday because I do 14 services for the nearly 50,000 people that will show up at Easter this year. It's our 30th Easter at Saddleback. And we're going to pass out about 40,000 to 50,000 grocery bags and say, everybody fill them up, and bring them back next week. So in tough times, we say, let's help others. 

KING: Let's take a call from Tampa, Florida, hello. Tampa, are you there? 

CALLER: Yes, sir. 

KING: Go ahead. 

CALLER: Pastor Warren, you mentioned earlier that it's been 15 years since the genocide of Rwanda. My question is, with so many nations hurting financially, do you think it will make them reluctant to reach out to countries, such as Sudan, Congo and other nations that are currently suffering genocide? 

KING: Good question. 

WARREN: That's a great question. And the answer is absolutely. When people get into tough times, they tend to turn internally. We tend to think of ourselves, and we hold back. And, of course, when we've got so many thousands of people, 600,000 this month, 600,000 last month, 600,000 the year before, who lost their jobs. It's hard to think about other people when you're hurting. 

But the answer is we have to do both. And the Bible says very clearly that when we take assumption of the responsibility for other people who are hurting worse than us, god takes care of us. And I believe that we need to not just save our way, but we need to give our way out of this recession. And it's a time for generosity, not a time for a scarcity mentality. 

KING: By the way, this just in regarding the stolen Cessna from Canada. NORAD officials have told CNN the plane has landed on highway 60 in Missouri. The suspect is on the run. Again, the plane has landed. Nobody damaged. The suspect is on the run. "A.C. 360" will have more on this developing story. 

We can deal directly with this as a pastor, Rick. Would you try to counsel this person? 

WARREN: Well, clearly, he's a disturbed person. And we don't know all of the details, so I'm not going to do arm chair psychology on a guy I don't know why he did what he did. But the truth is, all of our motivations are formed by what I call a world view. And, in fact, Chuck Olson and I just did a series on this in the new magazine. But the world view is our perspective on life. And every behavior has a world view behind it. 

And so if you want to understand somebody's behavior, whether he's flying a Cessna plane or killing other people because he lost his job, you need to get back to the world view. Chuck Olson's written a great book on this called "The Good Life." And I invited him out to California, and we made a series of videos that we're now hoping to get into these connection groups that help people understand why do we do what we do? Everything we do is based on a world view. 

KING: Chuck still doing his prison ministries? 

WARREN: Oh, yes, very involved in prison ministries all around the world. We're working with him on that. 

KING: All right. Rick, your website again is what? 

WARREN: PurposeDriven.com. And if they'd like to be a part of the State of the Church Message, it's going to be Sunday night, April 19th. And all of the details will be on that website. 

KING: Great having you with us again. Thank you. 

WARREN: Thank you, Larry. 

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